[Wiki Loves Monuments] Tech question: 2 WLM templates of different country contests on same file

Lodewijk lodewijk at effeietsanders.org
Thu Sep 19 12:10:21 UTC 2013

Hi Vacio,

I don't quite understand your explanation - and I fail to see the merit of
your 'solution'.

First, you say that you get a lot of complaints of Armenian participants
because their photos are tagged with an Azerbaijanian template. To me, this
suggests that somehow, the buildings on those photos are recognized by the
Azerbaijan government as monuments. That just means the Azerbaijan
government thinks those are important buildings.

But then you say that the wlm.az competition only lets one city participate
(probably because the Azerbaijan government only recognized monuments in
that city. That confuses me, because it seems to contradict with your
earlier statement that you get a lot of complaints.

The situation as it is (or should be) now is, that people can add heritage
templates when a government recognizes that building as a monument. This is
very helpful in many situations because many people simply forget to add
this information. This includes a crazy situation where the Republic of
Ireland (which does not participate by the way) would recognize a monument
in the middle of Azerbaijan, then also this could be added. It is simply a
sign of appreciation and matter of fact.
Also, when a picture is 1) a monument recognized according to Country B's
national definition and 2) fulfills the criteria of a given competition
(submitted in the right month, license etc.), a template indicating that
the picture participates in Country B's national WLM competition can be
Based on these templates, the relevant categories will be added.

But: this can only be /additional/. Templates like this should not be
removed for other countries (with of course obvious exceptions, such as if
there is a clear mistake etc - like last year when someone submitted the
Eiffel tower in (I think) the Indian competition).

I don't see good arguments to change this. I know this might be confusing
and upsetting to some people who feel strongly about these cases, but then
we should make an effort to explain that Wikimedia Commons, like Wikipedia,
has a sense of Neutral Point of View. We don't decide which country is
right, or even whether a country exists. Especially in these cases, we're
focused on documenting these buildings, which clearly both the Azerbaijan
and Nagorno-Karabakh government agree upon that they are important cultural


2013/9/19 Vacio <vacio at riseup.net>

>  Dear all,
> I lack the technical background to comment on the discussion below. I just
> want to say this: I am frankly not so much concerned about which flag is
> placed where, or which country is mentioned where. I am only concerned that
> I get a lot of complains from Armenian participants of the contest, who see
> their photos appear in the wlm.az category rather than wlm.am (at the
> result of manual change of templates in their photos).
> Just to make clear why this bothers them. It is technically impossible for
> people who live in Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh to travel to Azerbaijan
> (let's say in case they become winners of wlm.az). (There are other
> issues as well, for instance, wlm.az seems to have only included the
> monuments of one city<https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikipediya:Viki_Abid%C9%99l%C9%99ri_Sevir_2013/Abid%C9%99l%C9%99rin_siyah%C4%B1s%C4%B1/%C5%9Eu%C5%9Fa>of Nagorno-Karabakh, while
> wlm.am included 4 provinces<https://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D4%BC%D5%82%D5%80_%D5%BA%D5%A1%D5%BF%D5%B4%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%A9%D5%B5%D5%A1%D5%B6_%D6%87_%D5%B4%D5%B7%D5%A1%D5%AF%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B5%D5%A9%D5%AB_%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%AA_%D5%B0%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B7%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%B1%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B6%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%AB_%D6%81%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%AF>
> ).
> This means that they are practically excluded from the contest (they have
> no chances to win). So, I suggest, that we, the WLM community, make a
> decision on how to solve this.
> I personally can think of two options:
> * We don't allow anyone to manually add templates to WLM images, at least
> until 30 September
> * We allow users to add only an alternative template which will not change
> hidden categories or any other metadata (I mean an alternative template of
> {{Cultural Heritage Azerbaijan}}).
> Please let us know if you can think of anything else.
> Vacio
> On 09/17/13 01:37 , Platonides wrote:
> On 16/09/13 16:35, Aleksey Chalabyan wrote:
> Dear all, and especially those who provide us with tools for running WLM
> contest.
> If on same page we have 2 templates, from different country contest,
> with different ID, do you think scripts/bot may run into issue?
> Will those tools successfully process both of templates, assign
> necessary categories, show up correctly in counters, voting tools, etc?
> Example of such image is:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:%D4%B1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D6%80%D5%A1%D5%BD%D5%AB_%D5%BE%D5%A1%D5%B6%D6%84,_%D5%BE%D5%A1%D5%B6%D6%84%D5%A1%D5%B5%D5%AB%D5%B6_%D5%B0%D5%A1%D5%B4%D5%A1%D5%AC%D5%AB%D6%80_....jpg
> Thanks beforehand,
> Xelgen
> The tools at http://toolserver.org/~platonides/wlm2013/ will consider
> only the first template.
> Last year the database was designed to support a second country, but it
> was so exceptional that it wasn't implemented. I think we identified a
> single case of multicountry monumentness before the contest, plus perhaps a
> couple more found later for some rivers.
> I can easily add detection of multiple countries, the trickiness starts
> when querying it, which not only results in more complex checks for the
> database, but it's not even clear how it should be defined: What should be
> the answer for "How many images have am and az together?" Should
> Ամարասի_վանք,_վանքային_համալիր_....jpg be counted once (as for "How many
> images are in total?") or be the sum of images of both countries?
> How to count the number of countries in which a user did photos, etc.
> If the problem is limited to monuments in Azerbaijan and Armenia contests,
> it may be simpler for the bot to detect that case and internally map those
> images to an am+az pseudo-country.
> PS: I agree with Multichill, renaming a monument template (or adding new
> variants such as redirects to it) will make the bot to suddenly not detect
> the monument identifier.
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