[Translators-l] Tech News translators: dates in recurring items
mathieu stumpf guntz
psychoslave at culture-libre.org
Tue Jan 24 08:55:39 UTC 2017
It's really the first time ever I hear about this rule. Sure making 3
digits group separated with thin non breaking spaces is a good practice
that you might use for the vintage, although to my mind that's a
practice whose readability usefulness comes with larger number. That is
2017 is far more common than 2 017, and you might even argue that habit
might make the former less disturbing.
Now regarding spaces between words, do anyone have an authoritative
source on the subject and what it says on this topic? For example there
is the Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie
nationale
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexique_des_r%C3%A8gles_typographiques_en_usage_%C3%A0_l%27Imprimerie_nationale>
but I have no access to it right now.
Le 24/01/2017 à 01:43, Saroj Dhakal a écrit :
> Please use the suggested format.
>
> Thanks,
> Saroj
>
> On Jan 24, 2017 6:26 AM, "Philippe Verdy" <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr
> <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:
>
> Ok between a quantity number (provided it is a short integer) and
> the following noun or unit (unconditional non-breaking before
> abbreviated units such as "m" or "kg"), but between a mouth day
> number and a month or a month and a year, there's no such
> restriction and the space is perfectly breakable (there's no
> quantity-unit relation between these numbers that are just
> enumerated in order).
>
> It is just suggested, in wide enough paragraphs, to avoid breaking
> dates, but the same could also be said about peole names (first
> name, last name) or toponyms: this is a styling refinement when
> typesetting documents, but actually this only applies if you can
> predeict the paragraph width and the unbreakable part is narrow
> compared to the paragraph, and probably only implemented when
> using justified paragraphs and other whitespaces can be expanded.
>
> This "rule" on dates is then definitely not a rule but a matter of
> preferences, and only applicable to typesetted documents, when you
> know the fonts used, their sizes, the paragraph width, and the
> kind of text justification made (or microjustifications, including
> kerning and variable floatting) around complex non-recangular shapes.
>
> If you have a table containing dates, non-breaking spaces will be
> worse as it will force other columns to become narrower or to have
> overlapping columns. long dates are perfectly breakable in that
> case I can see lot of examples of printed books where long dates
> in paragraphs are broken by linewraps because these are clearly
> separate words in an enumeration (it does not matter if the day
> number or year is spelled completely or written with digits, or if
> there's a weekday name prepended or time appended). Only dates in
> short format (dd/mm/yyyy) are unbreakable.
>
> 2017-01-24 1:11 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com
> <mailto:poltron54 at gmail.com>>:
>
> According to w:fr:WP:TYPO
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques#NON_C.C3.89SURE_NOMBRE_NOM>,
> we should use non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.
>
> 2017-01-23 19:36 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr
> <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>>:
>
> There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in
> French dates ! The numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no
> space at all. The long format "dd monthname yyyy" uses
> standard spaces for word separation (they are breakable).
> And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.
>
> However the French non-breaking spaces are need for
> punctuations (before "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of «
> guillemets » (standard French quotation marks) or in
> numbers as group separators. These should ideally be
> narrower than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather
> than NBSP U+00A0). But none of these occur in French dates.
>
>
> 2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com
> <mailto:poltron54 at gmail.com>>:
>
> According to me, it’s a real improvement.
>
> How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
> Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French
> dates.
> Pols12
>
> 2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz
> <psychoslave at culture-libre.org
> <mailto:psychoslave at culture-libre.org>>:
>
> Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar
> living practices beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry
> if I misunderstood your problem. Does that also
> apply to day names, or just month names?
>
> Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete
> examples of what you would like to obtain and what
> are possible side effect you are concern about,
> with some explanation and latin transcription (if
> possible)?
>
> I still believe adding other calendar support
> might have some interest. But maybe it would be
> more relevant to continue this aspect of the
> discussion on the phabricator ticket
> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155824>.
>
>
> Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
>> Hi Mathieu,
>> My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic.
>> The issue is that countries of the Levant and
>> Mesopotamia have applied the names of the
>> Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian
>> calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a
>> norm for decades. I think that all that needs to
>> be done in this regard is to update the list from
>> which the string of code suggested retrieves
>> values, and the string of code shall remain as is
>> without any changes necessary. My concern here
>> would be that this might affect values in cells
>> of tables, since the string of text will comprise
>> of two or three words. If this matter becomes a
>> nuisance, we may ignore it as the current state
>> of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic
>> speakers. I was trying to have an inclusive
>> approach instead of favouring one format over
>> another.
>> Regards,
>>
>> On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz
>> <psychoslave at culture-libre.org
>> <mailto:psychoslave at culture-libre.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Saluton Haytham,
>>
>> If you look at the documentation
>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time>,
>> non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now
>> having a deeper look at it, it seems that
>> Assyrian calendar
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_calendar>
>> is not yet in the set of supported calendars,
>> so a phabricator ticket should be filled here
>> I think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is
>> the the ISO 639-3 you would like to use
>> "/aii/" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or /"arc/"
>> (Aramaic language), but in both case it seems
>> that localization is missing
>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Psychoslave/asiria_kalendaro>
>> for already provided month names.
>>
>> So for the sake of the example, let's say
>> there was a "xaF" formatting code which would
>> provide an Assyrian calendar full month name,
>> then as far as I understand, you would like
>> to use:
>>
>> {{#time:xaF|$date1|aii||}}
>> ({{#time:F|$date1|aii||}})
>>
>> Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We
>> have here and there complaints when staff is
>> argued to not take enough into account
>> community advises, so it seems fair to also
>> emphasize actions when they are done with a
>> community feedback in the loop.
>>
>> Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :
>>>
>>> Hi Johan,
>>>
>>> This idea is brilliant.
>>>
>>> My own concern for Arabic is that there are
>>> two major ways for displaying Gregorian
>>> month names; transliteration as well as the
>>> Assyrian names. Usually transliterated names
>>> suffice, but I prefer using both divided by
>>> a slash. This is due to differences in
>>> official use, since transliterated names are
>>> used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf
>>> states; while Assyrian names are used in
>>> Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine.
>>> Could this automation function render both
>>> or just the common transliterated month
>>> names? It would be a bonus to have both
>>> displayed, though only transliterated month
>>> names would suffice.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Haytham Abulela Aly
>>>
>>> Freelance Translator
>>> Creative Translation
>>> "Creative & Confident"
>>>
>>>
>>> Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>>> Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
>>> Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
>>> Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
>>> On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the
>>>> newsletter every week could be in a format
>>>> that means you could get a 100% in the
>>>> translation memory and not have to change
>>>> the days and months every week. Do you want
>>>> this?
>>>>
>>>> Longer version:
>>>>
>>>> Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested
>>>> adding dates within <tvar> tags. This makes
>>>> it more complicated the first time you
>>>> translate, but should mean that you can
>>>> then use a 100% match from the translation
>>>> memory every time and just click on it the
>>>> same way you do for any other content that
>>>> stays exactly the same, instead of manually
>>>> having to change the days and months every
>>>> new week.
>>>>
>>>> It looks like this:
>>>> {#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d
>>>> xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}}
>>>> which means that I get this when I translate:
>>>> {{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.
>>>>
>>>> For Swedish, I can just keep it like that:
>>>> Where the English original said "24
>>>> January" the Swedish translation will say
>>>> "24 januari".
>>>>
>>>> Some languages write dates in another
>>>> format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first
>>>> time I do a translation I need to change it
>>>> to
>>>> {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}}
>>>> (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I
>>>> imagine RTL languages will need to change
>>>> something too the first time they translate
>>>> this, for example.
>>>>
>>>> All possible options are described here:
>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time
>>>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Pro: Less burden for returning translators.
>>>> You translate this once, whether you change
>>>> the date format or not, then you just click
>>>> on the translation in the translation
>>>> memory next week.
>>>>
>>>> Con: More complicated. More difficult for
>>>> new translators, especially if the standard
>>>> format doesn't match the norms of their
>>>> language.
>>>>
>>>> The question: Do you want this, or did you
>>>> prefer it the way it was? This is all about
>>>> making it as easy as possible for you, so
>>>> you decide.
>>>>
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page>
>>>>
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04
>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04>
>>>>
>>>> //Johan Jönsson
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
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>> --
>> Haytham Abulela ALY Certified member of the
>> Society of Translators and Interpreters of
>> British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>> <http://www.stibc.org/page/certified%20member%20directory/ezlist_member_1f249e57-9d21-47fc-8d39-11a26d993a66.aspx?_s=http%3a%2f%2fwww.stibc.org%2fpage%2fcertified+member+directory.aspx>
>> Arab Professional Translators' Society certified
>> member (#10850)
>> <http://www.arabtranslators.org/Certification/certified_members_801_900.aspx>
>> Certified member at Egyptian Translators
>> Association (EGYTA)
>> <http://www.egyta.com/k2-showcase/k2-latest-item/letter-h/letter-hn>
>> Profile on LinkedIn
>> <http://ca.linkedin.com/in/haythamhammam> Profile
>> on ProZ.com <http://www.proz.com/translator/895138>
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