[Translators-l] Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Saroj Dhakal lotusnagarkot at gmail.com
Tue Jan 24 00:43:16 UTC 2017 

Please use the suggested format.

Thanks,
Saroj

On Jan 24, 2017 6:26 AM, "Philippe Verdy" <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> Ok between a quantity number (provided it is a short integer) and the
> following noun or unit (unconditional non-breaking before abbreviated units
> such as "m" or "kg"), but between a mouth day number and a month or a month
> and a year, there's no such restriction and the space is perfectly
> breakable (there's no quantity-unit relation between these numbers that are
> just enumerated in order).
>
> It is just suggested, in wide enough paragraphs, to avoid breaking dates,
> but the same could also be said about peole names (first name, last name)
> or toponyms: this is a styling refinement when typesetting documents, but
> actually this only applies if you can predeict the paragraph width and the
> unbreakable part is narrow compared to the paragraph, and probably only
> implemented when using justified paragraphs and other whitespaces can be
> expanded.
>
> This "rule" on dates is then definitely not a rule but a matter of
> preferences, and only applicable to typesetted documents, when you know the
> fonts used, their sizes, the paragraph width, and the kind of text
> justification made (or microjustifications, including kerning and variable
> floatting) around complex non-recangular shapes.
>
> If you have a table containing dates, non-breaking spaces will be worse as
> it will force other columns to become narrower or to have overlapping
> columns. long dates are perfectly breakable in that case I can see lot of
> examples of printed books where long dates in paragraphs are broken by
> linewraps because these are clearly separate words in an enumeration (it
> does not matter if the day number or year is spelled completely or written
> with digits, or if there's a weekday name prepended or time appended). Only
> dates in short format (dd/mm/yyyy) are unbreakable.
>
> 2017-01-24 1:11 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com>:
>
>> According to w:fr:WP:TYPO
>> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques#NON_C.C3.89SURE_NOMBRE_NOM>,
>> we should use non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.
>>
>> 2017-01-23 19:36 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>:
>>
>>> There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in French dates ! The
>>> numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no space at all. The long format "dd
>>> monthname yyyy" uses standard spaces for word separation (they are
>>> breakable). And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.
>>>
>>> However the French non-breaking spaces are need for punctuations (before
>>> "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of « guillemets » (standard French quotation
>>> marks) or in numbers as group separators. These should ideally be narrower
>>> than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather than NBSP U+00A0). But none
>>> of these occur in French dates.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> According to me, it’s a real improvement.
>>>>
>>>> How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
>>>> Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
>>>> Pols12
>>>>
>>>> 2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
>>>> psychoslave at culture-libre.org>:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar living practices
>>>>> beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does
>>>>> that also apply to day names, or just month names?
>>>>>
>>>>> Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete examples of what you
>>>>> would like to obtain and what are possible side effect you are concern
>>>>> about, with some explanation and latin transcription (if possible)?
>>>>>
>>>>> I still believe adding other calendar support might have some
>>>>> interest. But maybe it would be more relevant to continue this aspect of
>>>>> the discussion on the phabricator ticket
>>>>> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155824>.
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mathieu,
>>>>> My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that
>>>>> countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the
>>>>> Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This
>>>>> has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in
>>>>> this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested
>>>>> retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any
>>>>> changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values
>>>>> in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three
>>>>> words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current
>>>>> state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was
>>>>> trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over
>>>>> another.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <
>>>>> psychoslave at culture-libre.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Saluton Haytham,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you look at the documentation
>>>>>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time>,
>>>>>> non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it
>>>>>> seems that Assyrian calendar
>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_calendar> is not yet in the
>>>>>> set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I
>>>>>> think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like
>>>>>> to use "*aii*" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or *"arc*" (Aramaic language),
>>>>>> but in both case it seems that localization is missing
>>>>>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Psychoslave/asiria_kalendaro>
>>>>>> for already provided month names.
>>>>>> So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF"
>>>>>> formatting code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name,
>>>>>> then as far as I understand, you would like to use:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> {{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there
>>>>>> complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community
>>>>>> advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with
>>>>>> a community feedback in the loop.
>>>>>> Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Johan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This idea is brilliant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for
>>>>>> displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian
>>>>>> names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both
>>>>>> divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since
>>>>>> transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf
>>>>>> states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and
>>>>>> Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common
>>>>>> transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed,
>>>>>> though only transliterated month names would suffice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Haytham Abulela Aly
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Freelance Translator
>>>>>> Creative Translation
>>>>>> "Creative & Confident"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>>>>>> Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
>>>>>> Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
>>>>>> Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be
>>>>>> in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and
>>>>>> not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Longer version:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar>
>>>>>> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but
>>>>>> should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory
>>>>>> every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content
>>>>>> that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days
>>>>>> and months every new week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It looks like this:
>>>>>> {#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</
>>>>>> >|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which
>>>>>> means that I get this when I translate:
>>>>>> {{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original
>>>>>> said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese,
>>>>>> the first time I do a translation I need to change it to
>>>>>> {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2
>>>>>> and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the
>>>>>> first time they translate this, for example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All possible options are described here:
>>>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once,
>>>>>> whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the
>>>>>> translation in the translation memory next week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially
>>>>>> if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was?
>>>>>> This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Transla
>>>>>> te&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04
>>>>>>
>>>>>> //Johan Jönsson
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Translators-l mailing listTranslators-l at lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Translators-l mailing listTranslators-l at lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ Translators-l
>>>>>> mailing list Translators-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Haytham Abulela ALY Certified member of the Society of Translators
>>>>> and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>>>>> <http://www.stibc.org/page/certified%20member%20directory/ezlist_member_1f249e57-9d21-47fc-8d39-11a26d993a66.aspx?_s=http%3a%2f%2fwww.stibc.org%2fpage%2fcertified+member+directory.aspx> Arab
>>>>> Professional Translators' Society certified member (#10850)
>>>>> <http://www.arabtranslators.org/Certification/certified_members_801_900.aspx> Certified
>>>>> member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
>>>>> <http://www.egyta.com/k2-showcase/k2-latest-item/letter-h/letter-hn> Profile
>>>>> on LinkedIn <http://ca.linkedin.com/in/haythamhammam> Profile on
>>>>> ProZ.com <http://www.proz.com/translator/895138>
>>>>> Please consider your environmental responsibility. Before printing
>>>>> this e-mail message, ask yourself whether you really need a hard copy.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Translators-l mailing listTranslators-l at lists.wikimedia.orghttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Translators-l mailing list
>>>>> Translators-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Translators-l mailing list
>>>> Translators-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Translators-l mailing list
>>> Translators-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Translators-l mailing list
> Translators-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/translators-l
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/translators-l/attachments/20170124/eda6ec25/attachment-0001.html>

More information about the Translators-l mailing list