[Translators-l] Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

Tue Jan 24 00:40:21 UTC 2017

Ok between a quantity number (provided it is a short integer) and the
following noun or unit (unconditional non-breaking before abbreviated units
such as "m" or "kg"), but between a mouth day number and a month or a month
and a year, there's no such restriction and the space is perfectly
breakable (there's no quantity-unit relation between these numbers that are
just enumerated in order).

It is just suggested, in wide enough paragraphs, to avoid breaking dates,
but the same could also be said about peole names (first name, last name)
or toponyms: this is a styling refinement when typesetting documents, but
actually this only applies if you can predeict the paragraph width and the
unbreakable part is narrow compared to the paragraph, and probably only
implemented when using justified paragraphs and other whitespaces can be
expanded.

This "rule" on dates is then definitely not a rule but a matter of
preferences, and only applicable to typesetted documents, when you know the
fonts used, their sizes, the paragraph width, and the kind of text
justification made (or microjustifications, including kerning and variable
floatting) around complex non-recangular shapes.

If you have a table containing dates, non-breaking spaces will be worse as
it will force other columns to become narrower or to have overlapping
columns. long dates are perfectly breakable in that case I can see lot of
examples of printed books where long dates in paragraphs are broken by
linewraps because these are clearly separate words in an enumeration (it
does not matter if the day number or year is spelled completely or written
with digits, or if there's a weekday name prepended or time appended). Only
dates in short format (dd/mm/yyyy) are unbreakable.

2017-01-24 1:11 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com>:

> According to w:fr:WP:TYPO
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques#NON_C.C3.89SURE_NOMBRE_NOM>,
> we should use non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.
>
> 2017-01-23 19:36 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>:
>
>> There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in French dates ! The
>> numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no space at all. The long format "dd
>> monthname yyyy" uses standard spaces for word separation (they are
>> breakable). And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.
>>
>> However the French non-breaking spaces are need for punctuations (before
>> "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of « guillemets » (standard French quotation
>> marks) or in numbers as group separators. These should ideally be narrower
>> than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather than NBSP U+00A0). But none
>> of these occur in French dates.
>>
>>
>> 2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> According to me, it’s a real improvement.
>>>
>>> How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
>>> Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French dates.
>>> Pols12
>>>
>>> 2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
>>> psychoslave at culture-libre.org>:
>>>
>>>> Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar living practices
>>>> beyond Greogorian calendar, sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does
>>>> that also apply to day names, or just month names?
>>>>
>>>> Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete examples of what you
>>>> would like to obtain and what are possible side effect you are concern
>>>> about, with some explanation and latin transcription (if possible)?
>>>>
>>>> I still believe adding other calendar support might have some interest.
>>>> But maybe it would be more relevant to continue this aspect of the
>>>> discussion on the phabricator ticket
>>>> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155824>.
>>>>
>>>> Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Hi Mathieu,
>>>> My comment is not related to Assyrian or Aramaic. The issue is that
>>>> countries of the Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of the
>>>> Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian calendar in Arabic letters. This
>>>> has become a norm for decades. I think that all that needs to be done in
>>>> this regard is to update the list from which the string of code suggested
>>>> retrieves values, and the string of code shall remain as is without any
>>>> changes necessary. My concern here would be that this might affect values
>>>> in cells of tables, since the string of text will comprise of two or three
>>>> words. If this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it as the current
>>>> state of affairs is suitable for the majority of Arabic speakers. I was
>>>> trying to have an inclusive approach instead of favouring one format over
>>>> another.
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf guntz <
>>>> psychoslave at culture-libre.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Saluton Haytham,
>>>>>
>>>>> If you look at the documentation
>>>>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time>,
>>>>> non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now having a deeper look at it, it
>>>>> seems that Assyrian calendar
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_calendar> is not yet in the
>>>>> set of supported calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be filled here I
>>>>> think, shouldn't it. I don't know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would like
>>>>> to use "*aii*" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic) or *"arc*" (Aramaic language),
>>>>> but in both case it seems that localization is missing
>>>>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Psychoslave/asiria_kalendaro>
>>>>> for already provided month names.
>>>>> So for the sake of the example, let's say there was a "xaF" formatting
>>>>> code which would provide an Assyrian calendar full month name, then as far
>>>>> as I understand, you would like to use:
>>>>>
>>>>> {{#time:xaF|$date1|aii}} ({{#time:F|$date1|aii}})
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We have here and there
>>>>> complaints when staff is argued to not take enough into account community
>>>>> advises, so it seems fair to also emphasize actions when they are done with
>>>>> a community feedback in the loop.
>>>>> Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Johan,
>>>>>
>>>>> This idea is brilliant.
>>>>>
>>>>> My own concern for Arabic is that there are two major ways for
>>>>> displaying Gregorian month names; transliteration as well as the Assyrian
>>>>> names. Usually transliterated names suffice, but I prefer using both
>>>>> divided by a slash. This is due to differences in official use, since
>>>>> transliterated names are used in Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf
>>>>> states; while Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and
>>>>> Palestine. Could this automation function render both or just the common
>>>>> transliterated month names? It would be a bonus to have both displayed,
>>>>> though only transliterated month names would suffice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Haytham Abulela Aly
>>>>>
>>>>> Freelance Translator
>>>>> Creative Translation
>>>>> "Creative & Confident"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>>>>> Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
>>>>> Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
>>>>> Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the newsletter every week could be
>>>>> in a format that means you could get a 100% in the translation memory and
>>>>> not have to change the days and months every week. Do you want this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Longer version:
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested adding dates within <tvar>
>>>>> tags. This makes it more complicated the first time you translate, but
>>>>> should mean that you can then use a 100% match from the translation memory
>>>>> every time and just click on it the same way you do for any other content
>>>>> that stays exactly the same, instead of manually having to change the days
>>>>> and months every new week.
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks like this:
>>>>> {#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</
>>>>> >|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}} which
>>>>> means that I get this when I translate:
>>>>> {{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.
>>>>>
>>>>> For Swedish, I can just keep it like that: Where the English original
>>>>> said "24 January" the Swedish translation will say "24 januari".
>>>>>
>>>>> Some languages write dates in another format. For Mandarin Chinese,
>>>>> the first time I do a translation I need to change it to
>>>>> {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}} (and the same for $date2
>>>>> and $date3). I imagine RTL languages will need to change something too the
>>>>> first time they translate this, for example.
>>>>>
>>>>> All possible options are described here:
>>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time
>>>>>
>>>>> Pro: Less burden for returning translators. You translate this once,
>>>>> whether you change the date format or not, then you just click on the
>>>>> translation in the translation memory next week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Con: More complicated. More difficult for new translators, especially
>>>>> if the standard format doesn't match the norms of their language.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question: Do you want this, or did you prefer it the way it was?
>>>>> This is all about making it as easy as possible for you, so you decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Transla
>>>>> te&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page
>>>>>
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04
>>>>>
>>>>> //Johan Jönsson
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Haytham Abulela ALY Certified member of the Society of Translators and
>>>> Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>>>> <http://www.stibc.org/page/certified%20member%20directory/ezlist_member_1f249e57-9d21-47fc-8d39-11a26d993a66.aspx?_s=http%3a%2f%2fwww.stibc.org%2fpage%2fcertified+member+directory.aspx> Arab
>>>> Professional Translators' Society certified member (#10850)
>>>> <http://www.arabtranslators.org/Certification/certified_members_801_900.aspx> Certified
>>>> member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
>>>> <http://www.egyta.com/k2-showcase/k2-latest-item/letter-h/letter-hn> Profile
>>>> on LinkedIn <http://ca.linkedin.com/in/haythamhammam> Profile on
>>>> ProZ.com <http://www.proz.com/translator/895138>
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