[Translators-l] Tech News translators: dates in recurring items

mathieu stumpf guntz psychoslave at culture-libre.org
Tue Jan 24 09:19:30 UTC 2017


Ok, here is more explanation on the topic 
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques#Nombres_et_espaces>. 
Which means you might use something like:

{{#time:j F|| |{{formatnum:|Y}}|$date1|$format_language_code}}


Le 24/01/2017 à 09:55, mathieu stumpf guntz a écrit :
>
> It's really the first time ever I hear about this rule. Sure making 3 
> digits group separated with thin non breaking spaces is a good 
> practice that you might use for the vintage, although to my mind 
> that's a practice whose readability usefulness comes with larger 
> number. That is 2017 is far more common than 2 017, and you might even 
> argue that habit might make the former less disturbing.
>
> Now regarding spaces between words, do anyone have an authoritative 
> source on the subject and what it says on this topic? For example 
> there is the Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie 
> nationale 
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexique_des_r%C3%A8gles_typographiques_en_usage_%C3%A0_l%27Imprimerie_nationale> 
> but I have no access to it right now.
>
>
> Le 24/01/2017 à 01:43, Saroj Dhakal a écrit :
>> Please use the suggested format.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Saroj
>>
>> On Jan 24, 2017 6:26 AM, "Philippe Verdy" <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr 
>> <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:
>>
>>     Ok between a quantity number (provided it is a short integer) and
>>     the following noun or unit (unconditional non-breaking before
>>     abbreviated units such as "m" or "kg"), but between a mouth day
>>     number and a month or a month and a year, there's no such
>>     restriction and the space is perfectly breakable (there's no
>>     quantity-unit relation between these numbers that are just
>>     enumerated in order).
>>
>>     It is just suggested, in wide enough paragraphs, to avoid
>>     breaking dates, but the same could also be said about peole names
>>     (first name, last name) or toponyms: this is a styling refinement
>>     when typesetting documents, but actually this only applies if you
>>     can predeict the paragraph width and the unbreakable part is
>>     narrow compared to the paragraph, and probably only implemented
>>     when using justified paragraphs and other whitespaces can be
>>     expanded.
>>
>>     This "rule" on dates is then definitely not a rule but a matter
>>     of preferences, and only applicable to typesetted documents, when
>>     you know the fonts used, their sizes, the paragraph width, and
>>     the kind of text justification made (or microjustifications,
>>     including kerning and variable floatting) around complex
>>     non-recangular shapes.
>>
>>     If you have a table containing dates, non-breaking spaces will be
>>     worse as it will force other columns to become narrower or to
>>     have overlapping columns. long dates are perfectly breakable in
>>     that case I can see lot of examples of printed books where long
>>     dates in paragraphs are broken by linewraps because these are
>>     clearly separate words in an enumeration (it does not matter if
>>     the day number or year is spelled completely or written with
>>     digits, or if there's a weekday name prepended or time appended).
>>     Only dates in short format (dd/mm/yyyy) are unbreakable.
>>
>>     2017-01-24 1:11 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:poltron54 at gmail.com>>:
>>
>>         According to w:fr:WP:TYPO
>>         <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques#NON_C.C3.89SURE_NOMBRE_NOM>,
>>         we should use non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.
>>
>>         2017-01-23 19:36 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr
>>         <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>>:
>>
>>             There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in
>>             French dates ! The numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no
>>             space at all. The long format "dd monthname yyyy" uses
>>             standard spaces for word separation (they are breakable).
>>             And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.
>>
>>             However the French non-breaking spaces are need for
>>             punctuations (before "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of «
>>             guillemets » (standard French quotation marks) or in
>>             numbers as group separators. These should ideally be
>>             narrower than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather
>>             than NBSP U+00A0). But none of these occur in French dates.
>>
>>
>>             2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com
>>             <mailto:poltron54 at gmail.com>>:
>>
>>                 According to me, it’s a real improvement.
>>
>>                 How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
>>                 Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French
>>                 dates.
>>                 Pols12
>>
>>                 2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz
>>                 <psychoslave at culture-libre.org
>>                 <mailto:psychoslave at culture-libre.org>>:
>>
>>                     Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar
>>                     living practices beyond Greogorian calendar,
>>                     sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does that
>>                     also apply to day names, or just month names?
>>
>>                     Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete
>>                     examples of what you would like to obtain and
>>                     what are possible side effect you are concern
>>                     about, with some explanation and latin
>>                     transcription (if possible)?
>>
>>                     I still believe adding other calendar support
>>                     might have some interest. But maybe it would be
>>                     more relevant to continue this aspect of the
>>                     discussion on the phabricator ticket
>>                     <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155824>.
>>
>>
>>                     Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
>>>                     Hi Mathieu,
>>>                     My comment is not related to Assyrian or
>>>                     Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the
>>>                     Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of
>>>                     the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian
>>>                     calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a
>>>                     norm for decades. I think that all that needs to
>>>                     be done in this regard is to update the list
>>>                     from which the string of code suggested
>>>                     retrieves values, and the string of code shall
>>>                     remain as is without any changes necessary. My
>>>                     concern here would be that this might affect
>>>                     values in cells of tables, since the string of
>>>                     text will comprise of two or three words. If
>>>                     this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it
>>>                     as the current state of affairs is suitable for
>>>                     the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to
>>>                     have an inclusive approach instead of favouring
>>>                     one format over another.
>>>                     Regards,
>>>
>>>                     On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf
>>>                     guntz <psychoslave at culture-libre.org
>>>                     <mailto:psychoslave at culture-libre.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                         Saluton Haytham,
>>>
>>>                         If you look at the documentation
>>>                         <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time>,
>>>                         non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now
>>>                         having a deeper look at it, it seems that
>>>                         Assyrian calendar
>>>                         <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_calendar>
>>>                         is not yet in the set of supported
>>>                         calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be
>>>                         filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't
>>>                         know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would
>>>                         like to use "/aii/" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic)
>>>                         or /"arc/" (Aramaic language), but in both
>>>                         case it seems that localization is missing
>>>                         <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Psychoslave/asiria_kalendaro>
>>>                         for already provided month names.
>>>
>>>                         So for the sake of the example, let's say
>>>                         there was a "xaF" formatting code which
>>>                         would provide an Assyrian calendar full
>>>                         month name, then as far as I understand, you
>>>                         would like to use:
>>>
>>>                             {{#time:xaF|$date1|aii||}}
>>>                             ({{#time:F|$date1|aii||}})
>>>
>>>                         Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We
>>>                         have here and there complaints when staff is
>>>                         argued to not take enough into account
>>>                         community advises, so it seems fair to also
>>>                         emphasize actions when they are done with a
>>>                         community feedback in the loop.
>>>
>>>                         Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>                         Hi Johan,
>>>>
>>>>                         This idea is brilliant.
>>>>
>>>>                         My own concern for Arabic is that there are
>>>>                         two major ways for displaying Gregorian
>>>>                         month names; transliteration as well as the
>>>>                         Assyrian names. Usually transliterated
>>>>                         names suffice, but I prefer using both
>>>>                         divided by a slash. This is due to
>>>>                         differences in official use, since
>>>>                         transliterated names are used in Egypt,
>>>>                         Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while
>>>>                         Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria,
>>>>                         Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this
>>>>                         automation function render both or just the
>>>>                         common transliterated month names? It would
>>>>                         be a bonus to have both displayed, though
>>>>                         only transliterated month names would suffice.
>>>>
>>>>                         Regards,
>>>>
>>>>                         Haytham Abulela Aly
>>>>
>>>>                         Freelance Translator
>>>>                         Creative Translation
>>>>                         "Creative & Confident"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                         Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>>>>                         Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
>>>>                         Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
>>>>                         Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
>>>>                         On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
>>>>>                         Hi everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>                         TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the
>>>>>                         newsletter every week could be in a format
>>>>>                         that means you could get a 100% in the
>>>>>                         translation memory and not have to change
>>>>>                         the days and months every week. Do you
>>>>>                         want this?
>>>>>
>>>>>                         Longer version:
>>>>>
>>>>>                         Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested
>>>>>                         adding dates within <tvar> tags. This
>>>>>                         makes it more complicated the first time
>>>>>                         you translate, but should mean that you
>>>>>                         can then use a 100% match from the
>>>>>                         translation memory every time and just
>>>>>                         click on it the same way you do for any
>>>>>                         other content that stays exactly the same,
>>>>>                         instead of manually having to change the
>>>>>                         days and months every new week.
>>>>>
>>>>>                         It looks like this:
>>>>>                         {#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d
>>>>>                         xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}}
>>>>>                         which means that I get this when I translate:
>>>>>                         {{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.
>>>>>
>>>>>                         For Swedish, I can just keep it like that:
>>>>>                         Where the English original said "24
>>>>>                         January" the Swedish translation will say
>>>>>                         "24 januari".
>>>>>
>>>>>                         Some languages write dates in another
>>>>>                         format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first
>>>>>                         time I do a translation I need to change
>>>>>                         it to
>>>>>                         {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}}
>>>>>                         (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I
>>>>>                         imagine RTL languages will need to change
>>>>>                         something too the first time they
>>>>>                         translate this, for example.
>>>>>
>>>>>                         All possible options are described here:
>>>>>                         https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time
>>>>>                         <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                         Pro: Less burden for returning
>>>>>                         translators. You translate this once,
>>>>>                         whether you change the date format or not,
>>>>>                         then you just click on the translation in
>>>>>                         the translation memory next week.
>>>>>
>>>>>                         Con: More complicated. More difficult for
>>>>>                         new translators, especially if the
>>>>>                         standard format doesn't match the norms of
>>>>>                         their language.
>>>>>
>>>>>                         The question: Do you want this, or did you
>>>>>                         prefer it the way it was? This is all
>>>>>                         about making it as easy as possible for
>>>>>                         you, so you decide.
>>>>>
>>>>>                         https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page
>>>>>                         <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page>
>>>>>
>>>>>                         https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04
>>>>>                         <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04>
>>>>>
>>>>>                         //Johan Jönsson
>>>>>                         --
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>                     -- 
>>>                     Haytham Abulela ALY Certified member of the
>>>                     Society of Translators and Interpreters of
>>>                     British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>>>                     <http://www.stibc.org/page/certified%20member%20directory/ezlist_member_1f249e57-9d21-47fc-8d39-11a26d993a66.aspx?_s=http%3a%2f%2fwww.stibc.org%2fpage%2fcertified+member+directory.aspx>
>>>                     Arab Professional Translators' Society certified
>>>                     member (#10850)
>>>                     <http://www.arabtranslators.org/Certification/certified_members_801_900.aspx>
>>>                     Certified member at Egyptian Translators
>>>                     Association (EGYTA)
>>>                     <http://www.egyta.com/k2-showcase/k2-latest-item/letter-h/letter-hn>
>>>                     Profile on LinkedIn
>>>                     <http://ca.linkedin.com/in/haythamhammam>
>>>                     Profile on ProZ.com
>>>                     <http://www.proz.com/translator/895138>
>>>                     Please consider your environmental
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