[Translators-l] Tech News translators: dates in recurring items
mathieu stumpf guntz
psychoslave at culture-libre.org
Tue Jan 24 09:19:30 UTC 2017
Ok, here is more explanation on the topic
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques#Nombres_et_espaces>.
Which means you might use something like:
{{#time:j F|| |{{formatnum:|Y}}|$date1|$format_language_code}}
Le 24/01/2017 à 09:55, mathieu stumpf guntz a écrit :
>
> It's really the first time ever I hear about this rule. Sure making 3
> digits group separated with thin non breaking spaces is a good
> practice that you might use for the vintage, although to my mind
> that's a practice whose readability usefulness comes with larger
> number. That is 2017 is far more common than 2 017, and you might even
> argue that habit might make the former less disturbing.
>
> Now regarding spaces between words, do anyone have an authoritative
> source on the subject and what it says on this topic? For example
> there is the Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie
> nationale
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexique_des_r%C3%A8gles_typographiques_en_usage_%C3%A0_l%27Imprimerie_nationale>
> but I have no access to it right now.
>
>
> Le 24/01/2017 à 01:43, Saroj Dhakal a écrit :
>> Please use the suggested format.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Saroj
>>
>> On Jan 24, 2017 6:26 AM, "Philippe Verdy" <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr
>> <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>> wrote:
>>
>> Ok between a quantity number (provided it is a short integer) and
>> the following noun or unit (unconditional non-breaking before
>> abbreviated units such as "m" or "kg"), but between a mouth day
>> number and a month or a month and a year, there's no such
>> restriction and the space is perfectly breakable (there's no
>> quantity-unit relation between these numbers that are just
>> enumerated in order).
>>
>> It is just suggested, in wide enough paragraphs, to avoid
>> breaking dates, but the same could also be said about peole names
>> (first name, last name) or toponyms: this is a styling refinement
>> when typesetting documents, but actually this only applies if you
>> can predeict the paragraph width and the unbreakable part is
>> narrow compared to the paragraph, and probably only implemented
>> when using justified paragraphs and other whitespaces can be
>> expanded.
>>
>> This "rule" on dates is then definitely not a rule but a matter
>> of preferences, and only applicable to typesetted documents, when
>> you know the fonts used, their sizes, the paragraph width, and
>> the kind of text justification made (or microjustifications,
>> including kerning and variable floatting) around complex
>> non-recangular shapes.
>>
>> If you have a table containing dates, non-breaking spaces will be
>> worse as it will force other columns to become narrower or to
>> have overlapping columns. long dates are perfectly breakable in
>> that case I can see lot of examples of printed books where long
>> dates in paragraphs are broken by linewraps because these are
>> clearly separate words in an enumeration (it does not matter if
>> the day number or year is spelled completely or written with
>> digits, or if there's a weekday name prepended or time appended).
>> Only dates in short format (dd/mm/yyyy) are unbreakable.
>>
>> 2017-01-24 1:11 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:poltron54 at gmail.com>>:
>>
>> According to w:fr:WP:TYPO
>> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_typographiques#NON_C.C3.89SURE_NOMBRE_NOM>,
>> we should use non-breakable spaces in French long format dates.
>>
>> 2017-01-23 19:36 GMT+01:00 Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr
>> <mailto:verdy_p at wanadoo.fr>>:
>>
>> There'a absolutely no need of non-breaking spaces in
>> French dates ! The numeric format "dd/mm/yyyy" has no
>> space at all. The long format "dd monthname yyyy" uses
>> standard spaces for word separation (they are breakable).
>> And there's NEVER any space in the middel of the year.
>>
>> However the French non-breaking spaces are need for
>> punctuations (before "!", "?", ":" or in the middle of «
>> guillemets » (standard French quotation marks) or in
>> numbers as group separators. These should ideally be
>> narrower than standard spaces (i.e. NNBSP U+203F rather
>> than NBSP U+00A0). But none of these occur in French dates.
>>
>>
>> 2017-01-23 19:09 GMT+01:00 Pols12 <poltron54 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:poltron54 at gmail.com>>:
>>
>> According to me, it’s a real improvement.
>>
>> How can we edit or suggest an edit to the date format?
>> Indeed, we used to use non-breaking spaces in French
>> dates.
>> Pols12
>>
>> 2017-01-23 8:45 GMT+01:00 mathieu stumpf guntz
>> <psychoslave at culture-libre.org
>> <mailto:psychoslave at culture-libre.org>>:
>>
>> Well, I don't have much knowledge about calendar
>> living practices beyond Greogorian calendar,
>> sorry if I misunderstood your problem. Does that
>> also apply to day names, or just month names?
>>
>> Would you be kind enough to give me some concrete
>> examples of what you would like to obtain and
>> what are possible side effect you are concern
>> about, with some explanation and latin
>> transcription (if possible)?
>>
>> I still believe adding other calendar support
>> might have some interest. But maybe it would be
>> more relevant to continue this aspect of the
>> discussion on the phabricator ticket
>> <https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T155824>.
>>
>>
>> Le 20/01/2017 à 13:40, Haytham Abulela ALY a écrit :
>>> Hi Mathieu,
>>> My comment is not related to Assyrian or
>>> Aramaic. The issue is that countries of the
>>> Levant and Mesopotamia have applied the names of
>>> the Assyrian/Aramaic calendar to the Gregorian
>>> calendar in Arabic letters. This has become a
>>> norm for decades. I think that all that needs to
>>> be done in this regard is to update the list
>>> from which the string of code suggested
>>> retrieves values, and the string of code shall
>>> remain as is without any changes necessary. My
>>> concern here would be that this might affect
>>> values in cells of tables, since the string of
>>> text will comprise of two or three words. If
>>> this matter becomes a nuisance, we may ignore it
>>> as the current state of affairs is suitable for
>>> the majority of Arabic speakers. I was trying to
>>> have an inclusive approach instead of favouring
>>> one format over another.
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> On 20 January 2017 at 02:25, mathieu stumpf
>>> guntz <psychoslave at culture-libre.org
>>> <mailto:psychoslave at culture-libre.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Saluton Haytham,
>>>
>>> If you look at the documentation
>>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time>,
>>> non-Gregorian formating is supported. Now
>>> having a deeper look at it, it seems that
>>> Assyrian calendar
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_calendar>
>>> is not yet in the set of supported
>>> calendars, so a phabricator ticket should be
>>> filled here I think, shouldn't it. I don't
>>> know what is the the ISO 639-3 you would
>>> like to use "/aii/" (Assyrian Neo-Aramaic)
>>> or /"arc/" (Aramaic language), but in both
>>> case it seems that localization is missing
>>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:Psychoslave/asiria_kalendaro>
>>> for already provided month names.
>>>
>>> So for the sake of the example, let's say
>>> there was a "xaF" formatting code which
>>> would provide an Assyrian calendar full
>>> month name, then as far as I understand, you
>>> would like to use:
>>>
>>> {{#time:xaF|$date1|aii||}}
>>> ({{#time:F|$date1|aii||}})
>>>
>>> Thank you Johan for the feedback request. We
>>> have here and there complaints when staff is
>>> argued to not take enough into account
>>> community advises, so it seems fair to also
>>> emphasize actions when they are done with a
>>> community feedback in the loop.
>>>
>>> Le 19/01/2017 à 18:58, Haytham Aly a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Hi Johan,
>>>>
>>>> This idea is brilliant.
>>>>
>>>> My own concern for Arabic is that there are
>>>> two major ways for displaying Gregorian
>>>> month names; transliteration as well as the
>>>> Assyrian names. Usually transliterated
>>>> names suffice, but I prefer using both
>>>> divided by a slash. This is due to
>>>> differences in official use, since
>>>> transliterated names are used in Egypt,
>>>> Sudan, Libya, Yemen, and Gulf states; while
>>>> Assyrian names are used in Iraq, Syria,
>>>> Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine. Could this
>>>> automation function render both or just the
>>>> common transliterated month names? It would
>>>> be a bonus to have both displayed, though
>>>> only transliterated month names would suffice.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Haytham Abulela Aly
>>>>
>>>> Freelance Translator
>>>> Creative Translation
>>>> "Creative & Confident"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Certified member of the Society of Translators and Interpreters of British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>>>> Arab Professional Translators' Society member (#10850)
>>>> Certified member at Egyptian Translators Association (EGYTA)
>>>> Registered at ProZ.com and LinkedIn.com
>>>> On 19/01/2017 8:31 AM, Johan Jönsson wrote:
>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> TL;DR: Dates in items that are in the
>>>>> newsletter every week could be in a format
>>>>> that means you could get a 100% in the
>>>>> translation memory and not have to change
>>>>> the days and months every week. Do you
>>>>> want this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Longer version:
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on Mathieu's suggestion, I've tested
>>>>> adding dates within <tvar> tags. This
>>>>> makes it more complicated the first time
>>>>> you translate, but should mean that you
>>>>> can then use a 100% match from the
>>>>> translation memory every time and just
>>>>> click on it the same way you do for any
>>>>> other content that stays exactly the same,
>>>>> instead of manually having to change the
>>>>> days and months every new week.
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks like this:
>>>>> {#time:<tvar|defualtformat>d
>>>>> xg</>|<tvar|date1>2017-01-24</>|<tvar|format_language_code>{{CURRENTCONTENTLANGUAGE}}</>}}
>>>>> which means that I get this when I translate:
>>>>> {{#time:$defualtformat|$date1|$format_language_code}}.
>>>>>
>>>>> For Swedish, I can just keep it like that:
>>>>> Where the English original said "24
>>>>> January" the Swedish translation will say
>>>>> "24 januari".
>>>>>
>>>>> Some languages write dates in another
>>>>> format. For Mandarin Chinese, the first
>>>>> time I do a translation I need to change
>>>>> it to
>>>>> {{#time:n月j日|$date1|$format_language_code}}
>>>>> (and the same for $date2 and $date3). I
>>>>> imagine RTL languages will need to change
>>>>> something too the first time they
>>>>> translate this, for example.
>>>>>
>>>>> All possible options are described here:
>>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time
>>>>> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions#.23time>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pro: Less burden for returning
>>>>> translators. You translate this once,
>>>>> whether you change the date format or not,
>>>>> then you just click on the translation in
>>>>> the translation memory next week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Con: More complicated. More difficult for
>>>>> new translators, especially if the
>>>>> standard format doesn't match the norms of
>>>>> their language.
>>>>>
>>>>> The question: Do you want this, or did you
>>>>> prefer it the way it was? This is all
>>>>> about making it as easy as possible for
>>>>> you, so you decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page
>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Translate&group=page-Tech%2FNews%2F2017%2F04&action=page>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04
>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/2017/04>
>>>>>
>>>>> //Johan Jönsson
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>> --
>>> Haytham Abulela ALY Certified member of the
>>> Society of Translators and Interpreters of
>>> British Columbia (STIBC) (EN>AR)
>>> <http://www.stibc.org/page/certified%20member%20directory/ezlist_member_1f249e57-9d21-47fc-8d39-11a26d993a66.aspx?_s=http%3a%2f%2fwww.stibc.org%2fpage%2fcertified+member+directory.aspx>
>>> Arab Professional Translators' Society certified
>>> member (#10850)
>>> <http://www.arabtranslators.org/Certification/certified_members_801_900.aspx>
>>> Certified member at Egyptian Translators
>>> Association (EGYTA)
>>> <http://www.egyta.com/k2-showcase/k2-latest-item/letter-h/letter-hn>
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