[Translators-l] Short message about reference formatting

Joe Sutherland jsutherland at wikimedia.org
Thu Jul 13 00:34:15 UTC 2017


Just a reminder that this is the translators-l mailing list, which is
probably not the ideal place to talk about this.

I would look at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T33597 for context, and
Sherry will likely know where your comments can be better placed.


*Joe Sutherland*
Community Advocate
Wikimedia Foundation

On 12 July 2017 at 17:04, Philippe Verdy <verdy_p at wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> This is absolutely not CSS "hack", but standard CSS feature.
> Only broken by some bad CSS inserted by default in MediaWiki (notably for
> all bulleted/numbered/definition lists, both in the wiki or HTML syntax,
> with their top/bottom margins that can't work nicely in multicolumn
> containers where these margins should be moved)... but that could be solved
> when we'll have the possibility to attach stylesheets to wiki pages instead
> of in each element to fix what default MediaWiki stylesheets forces
> everywhere.
> Another thing that Mediawiki still does not accept (even though they are
> completely harmless) are columns groups in tables (OK: there's no
> wikisyntax for them in wikitables, but I don't see why colgroup elements,
> or even thead/tbody's/tfoot elements are forbidden, even if they are also
> needed for accessibility of tables: this requires hacking tables with lot
> of CSS)
> And this is not a minority of wikis that use such technic (even if they
> don't have necessarily a very simple template to do that easily for
> references): there are lot of pages using that.
> Multicolumnn rendering is often far better than using tables with a static
> number of columns (that won't fit very well, on narrow smartphone screens
> or on large screens where lot of horizontal space is left unused).
> Multicolumn output could also be used for galleries, without necessarily
> using the REAL CSS+Javascript hack defined with mode="hover*".
> More generally we lack some basic features in Mediawiki to handle
> dynamic/flexible layout patterns that will work across all display sizes.
> There are now great layout frameworks used on modern websites (so these
> sites are usable on all screens, and will still remain "accessible" with
> various text sizes, zoom levels, or display resolutions between low-dpi
> displays like TVs and high-dpi displays like smartphones).
> So this proposal is in fact very minor: this was not really needed, the
> needs are clearly elsewhere. This is a solution for a problem that actually
> does not exist: when there's no problem, it's better not to fix it. This
> proposal is then a non-solution...
> I'll better welcome the addition of stylesheets per page, possibly also
> per templates (not generated multiple times at each inclusion, but just
> referenced only once on pages that will use transclude them): this was
> recently announced and will solve lot of problems and will help simplifying
> lot of templates, and avoiding many errors and simplifying the edition of
> articles or tables.
> 2017-07-13 0:07 GMT+02:00 Whatamidoing (WMF)/Sherry Snyder <
> ssnyder at wikimedia.org>:
>> The fact that a minority of wikis have implemented CSS hacks to do this
>> is exactly why this message needs to reach everyone.  Communities can
>> either remove the old CSS (recommended), or ask to be taken off the list
>> for default-on (acceptable).
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